Why doesn’t England just leave the UK?

WHETHER you were for Brexit or against it, there’s little doubt that the process of actually leaving is set to present some serious headaches over the next few years.

The negotiations will be a nightmare – costly, dull, full of political point scoring at either end of the Channel, and destined to end with consequences we’ll have no way of knowing for a generation.

Scotland, Northern Ireland and Gibraltar will be furious if a ‘hard’ Brexit is pursued, while major companies are already preparing to set sail for Frankfurt. 

There is, however, a simple solution which has had surprisingly little airtime. 

England should just leave the UK.

It’s a win-win situation for everybody but the Welsh, who would have to make their own minds up whether to follow England out the door. Democratically, financially and practically it makes perfect sense.

Gone would be the torturous negotiations, the invocation of Article 50, the dreary doom-laden warnings of obscure German politicians and ‘Brussels bureaucrats’.

Not only Britain but all Europe would be spared the ‘running commentary’ and years of idle speculation, the millions spent on tasteless conference suites ironing out the divorce details.

The UK would remain a member state of the EU. Nothing would change for Scotland, Northern Ireland or Gibraltar, who would maintain their status and membership of the single market. 

England would go its own way, instantly banished from the EU just as Scotland would have been according to campaigners against independence in 2014.

The threat from Spanish prime minister Rajoy to veto Scottish membership of the EU if it left the UK would be made redundant. It would apply to England, but it wouldn’t care.  

In one fell swoop England would be shot of the EU, as per the wishes of the 53.4 per cent who voted Leave, rid of the pesky Scots, and finally have its very own parliament. 

Even Wallonia has its own parliament and the English have long complained that Scottish MPs are allowed to vote on entirely English questions. 

This fledgling new state could be named ‘England’ and would have every right to expel immigrants, build walls and finally figure out its national identity. 

High finance would also win big. Instead of moving out of London, multinationals could set up camp in the north, while much of the present market instability would be alleviated with news of a practical compromise.  

Trade would suffer slightly with England out of the single market, but that’s on course to happen anyway and Europe is making contingency plans. 

The breakup of the UK courtesy of England’s departure might be a nasty affair but the mutual benefits would make negotiators see the light.

The result of the 2014 independence referendum in Scotland would be respected, as would the wishes of the 62 per cent of Scots, 55.8 per cent of Northern Irish and 99 per cent of Gibraltarians to stay in the EU.

It’s a perfect solution to a complex problem that allows all the Home Nations the freedom they deserve. 

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    • Dave Coull

      31 October 2016 • 00:46

      If either Scotland or England were to “leave”, then the United Kingdom of Great Britain would no longer exist.
      But anyway it’s nonsense to talk of England “leaving the UK”. Not going to happen. The thing that really could happen, and very soon, is Scotland becoming independent.
      I suppose, when Scotland becomes independent, the British Nationalists could try to form a NEW united kingdom.
      If they can manage to hold onto Wales and Northern Ireland, they could maybe call it the United Kingdom of England, Northern Ireland, and Wales.
      That lists these three territories in alphabetical order, and some of the Welsh might be pleased at getting a mention for the first time.
      But it WOULD be a new united kingdom.
      The old United Kingdom of Great Britain would be no more.
      And it would be ridiculous for them to try to include the word “Britain” anywhere in the new state’s title.
      With the northern TWO FIFTHS of the land mass of the island of Great Britain a separate country, any use of the word “Britain” would lead to people throughout the world world making jokes about “Little Britain”, “Not-So-Great-Britain” etc 😀

    • Brian Eagleson

      01 November 2016 • 00:02

      Sorry Mike. You love simplicity, but this ain’t as simple as you would like it to be. You see, people ain’t simple. And that’s a fact.

      Long ago, 4 independent countries joined a union called the United Kingdom. After a nasty war, 90% of one of those countries quit the union early in the 20th century – the Republic of Ireland. You could call it an Irexit. The remaining 10% of that former country – now called Northern Ireland, decided to Remain. But the squabbling over all this – quaintly called “The Troubles” – still surfaces every now and then, sometimes violently.

      Later on the surviving members of the previously United Kingdom tried to join a bigger union, but France’s General de Gaulle said “Non!” After his death, both the UK and the Irish Republic did manage to join that bigger union, but now the English and the Welsh want to Brexit and the Northern Irish and the Scots want to Remain, while the Republic of Ireland is Remainng anyway.

      I told you it was complicated.

      In a funny sort of way, Matthew has proposed the ideal solution. England quits. Scotland and Northern Ireland Remain. Wales is left to make up its mind all over again. Everybody gets what they want and Democracy wins.

      Just kidding. Things like that only happen in La-La Land – which isn’t a true democracy of course.

    • Chris Clark

      27 October 2016 • 15:43

      Might I suggest giving Lancashire and neighbouring counties the option to secede from England; thus allowing the Celtic Nations a contiguous land border ? #GoldenGob

    • Hilary Sheers

      27 October 2016 • 16:43

      The Welsh would now vote to stay in the EU having belatedly understood what it has gained from it and what it has to lose with its colonial masters still being able to vote on matters that affect the Welsh but without a reciprocal ability. I think this is a brilliant idea – the other side of the idea a friend and I have had of a Celtic Federation. Doing it this way makes it all so straightforward

    • Martyn Richard Jones

      28 October 2016 • 10:06

      My thoughts precisely.

      If Scotland wants to be in the EU, why should it be Scotland that has to jump through hoops to re-join the EU?

      Indeed, why on the other hand why should England and Wales have to jump through hoops for a decade in order to leave the EU?

    • Harry Douthwaite

      28 October 2016 • 11:56

      Little England wouldn’t be able to survive financially without the huge revenues stolen from Scotland
      If we in Scotland are “too poor and too wee” to survive without us being “funded by Westminster” why are they so desperate to stop us becoming an independent country?
      As for Scotland having a huge black hole and a £16 billion dept – where does that come from?
      Scotland cannot borrow and has no debts
      #IndyRef2 is coming

    • Robin Barclay

      28 October 2016 • 12:25

      I think this is an excellent idea. As you say, it would save alot of hassle and for once, the Tories might have to explain to you why they are so concerned with keeping Scotland in the UK.

    • Timothy Tighthole

      28 October 2016 • 12:45

      Please don’t let us keep you. We’ve ordered a taxi, and we’ll send your things on.

    • Julie MacDonald

      28 October 2016 • 14:22

      Bravo, well said. After our indyref, I spoke to my hubby about about a Celtic Union of sorts and having England go their own way. Brexit only strengthens the case for this solution. I’m sure Farage and his ilk would be only to happy to head up an English Indy campaign.

    • IainB

      28 October 2016 • 17:25

      It’s an extremely complex solution as England would then be a country without a government, how could it ‘just leave’ UK & function?
      A more serious approach would be to create a devolved government first (not a popular idea when posed for regions of England a few years back) then ask people of England if they want to leave.
      We’re looking at a 20 year process!
      England should have had devolved government a long time ago & if it had UK would be a bit fairer overall!

    • Gordon Harper

      28 October 2016 • 17:44

      I’m Scottish and tho naturally I want an independent Scotland I know many English “friends” that also feel distant to Westminster. House of lords/commons that does little but waste our hard earned cash.
      Scotland does not want Westminster rule – that’s fact. However it is more likely that Scotland gets independent when England realises we can co-exist as neighbours on this small isle without the political disdain that we have today. Why on earth do Scott’s want to be part of Europe’s mess.
      Political euro burocracy NO

    • Phil Clark

      28 October 2016 • 19:16

      I think England Should leave the UK no one will miss yous everyone is sick of the English Government Taking the Pure Pixh out of her Fellow Union members

    • Sweevo

      28 October 2016 • 19:38

      England has it’s own government, its called Westminster

    • Brian Eagleson

      28 October 2016 • 21:50

      A master stroke Matthew! This is how to make people think hard. Give them a shock and make them think really deeply about the current situation instead of just shooting from the hip as so many do these days – especially on the EWN website.

      Let me appeal once again to everyone – please stop for a moment – take time to think about where all this is leading us – and make up our minds about whether we are better off united or divided. The old piece of wisdom, ” United we stand – divided we fall” should perhaps be carefully considered in the context of the more apocalyptic, “Divide and conquer!”

      Are we being conquered? Well, we’re certainly divided. Will the Disunited Kingdom break up? Time will tell.

      Please think about it – and plan for your future.

      That’s what I’m doing – right now.

    • Simon Brodie

      29 October 2016 • 04:55

      Couldn’t agree more, but from a different angle.

      This question of ‘Britishness’ is a conundrum wrapped in a riddle. To be British is a question of self-identity. It doesn’t address real world issues such as the obvious democratic deficit between our four constituent nations, representation of people from distinct cultures. I don’t seek to address the incorrect myth of funding or even fair division of assets. The people of England deserve the right to be represented at a level that they set – not to have one imposed by some hyper-inflated ‘state’. Those days are gone now, and in the past they mus remain- to quote a phrase.

      I’m a Scot , and I’m fervently in favour of Scottish Independence – not from some old-fashioned percieved ‘betterness’, some otherness or bitter rivalry but from a point of logic. The socio-economic issues we face in Scotland are different to those faced from our well-loved cousins in the south, requiring, therefore, more localised solutions. The same applies south of the faux construct of a border within a constructed union. It’s old news. Sure, we’ll remain the staunchest of supporters, but to try to impose macro-solutions to localised issues just isn’t clever in a globalised society – it just will not work in the longer term.

      Go fo it.

    • Dave Coull

      29 October 2016 • 11:36

      My daughter lived and worked in Barcelona at one time, I even tried to do a bi-lingual “father-of-the-bride” speech after her wedding in Saint George’s Church in Barcelona. I think people were laughing more at my attempt at bi-lingualism than because my speech was funny.

      Although the tone of this article is largely humorous, I am going to spoil things by taking it seriously.

      It is meaningless to say “England should leave the UK”, for the same reason it is meaningless to say “Scotland should leave the UK”.

      If I were to divorce my wife (no, dearest, the thought hadn’t even crossed my mind) then that wouldn’t be a case of me “leaving” the marriage. The marriage would not continue but with just Mrs Coull. Similarly, if one person quits a two-person business partnership, the business partnership does not continue with just one partner. It ceases to exist.

      The United Kingdom of Great Britain was formed by the Kingdom of Scotland and the Kingdom of England.

      The Treaty of Union didn’t even mention either Wales or Ireland. Those were both just English

      The United Kingdom of Great Britain IS Scotland and England.
      Without either of them, the UK ceases to exist.

      Therefore, it is meaningless to talk of either country “leaving” the UK. Either country “leaving” means the UK does not exist.

    • Walt

      29 October 2016 • 15:17

      [quote]Oh I think London should lso remain in the UK. England, sans London, could leave. And cosmopolitan London, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales could form their own Union within the EU.[/quote]

      London could easily be an annex of Scotland just like Alaska is in the USA, This is the best Brexit solution by far ive read it only leaves the argument of the 52% of scots who wanted to stay in the UK but then where. But if Ireland Scotland and Wales remained as a Celt United Kingdom I see it working

    • PCowell

      29 October 2016 • 16:21

      Because we would still be stuck with Tories. Tories would destroy our whole country and many lives if they could make sure there’s nothing in the way for the few at the top to make more money.
      Remember all the old people who died of the cold after Tories stole and sold off public owned energy, or the recession of the 90s after Tories made millions unemployed lying that ship building would go over to third world countries, when it’s now in rich countries like Japan, and left us with economy based on not much more than banking which crashes every few years.
      I can’t believe people can’t see that ex Tories in UKIP only want to be separate for reasons such as the EU making corporations label GM ingredients and making sure workers have enough breaks.

    • PCowell

      29 October 2016 • 16:21

      Maybe Scotland threatening another vote to leave the UK and become a separate nation in the EU will be the wake up call many need to see reality, as if Scotland become a separate nation in the EU they will still have politicians who care more about people and society than anti EU Tories, who try to make the costs of further education unobtainable and ones who do carry on with university get into about 40,000 of debt in England. While it’s free in Scotland. I wish I was Scottish so I could have the option of never having the influence of Tories telling the poor they’re not working hard enough to survive, while they give their school friends top jobs to live for free on expenses, or ex Tories in UKIP like Nigel Farage claiming it’s about British jobs while he pays his foreign wife on tax payers expenses to increase his household finances.

    • Julie Mooney

      30 October 2016 • 05:12

      Even more reason for England to leave to be a good idea. England essentially forces the Tories on the other constituent countries of the UK. Spilt and everyone gets the government they vote for.
      People get the politicians they deserve after all.

    • Julie Mooney

      30 October 2016 • 05:22

      That would only be correct if the union were only two nations, clearly it’s not.
      Besides since this is mooted (humorously perhaps) as an idea to deal with the EU question your analogy is a little beside the point. If the rest of the UK without Scotland would have remained an EU member, the rest of the UK without England would too.
      To extend your analogy It’s like you joining a gym as a couple , you divorcing, your now ex Mrs membership isn’t extinguished by the divorce.

    • domhnall dods

      30 October 2016 • 07:16

      Nope, Ireland joined in 1801. So the UK was Scotland England and Wales until 1801. So it is a 4 party marriage. If one left the other 3 could indeed remain.

      It’s something of an abusive marriage when one party can dictate to the others and ignore their wishes.

    • Nicholas Alexander

      30 October 2016 • 07:43

      I had a very similar idea, but with the UK becoming a Federation that remains in the EU and London, being the seat of Government being subject to freedom of movement. England can have free trade with the UK and immigration control while it negotiates its stance with the EU and other territories. The open border of Ireland and the M25 are not borders, it is simply that different rules for residency and work apply.

    • Greg

      30 October 2016 • 08:32

      Interesting idea, however it completely ignores that London and quite a few large English cities voted to remain in the EU.

    • Ian

      30 October 2016 • 15:24

      Scotland would welcome you, you are clearly a decent human being

    • Habib Steele

      30 October 2016 • 16:21

      Hillary Sheers proposes a Celtic Federation. In the lead up to the conquest by England, helped by the betrayal of the Nobility, the Scots proposed a Confederate Union with England. The English wanted to absorb Scotland, so they insisted on an Incorporating Union.

      I think that it would be a good idea for England to leave the UK and Northern Ireland, Scotland, and Wales to continue as the UK, but as a Confederate Celtic Union, thus allowing each country to be Sovereign, and negotiate with each other treaties on Defense and Foreign Policy,, and other matters that they would choose. Could Gibraltar be part of this Celtic Federation? When the Queen dies those countries could have a referendum to become a republic, “The United Republic of Celtic Countries and Gibraltar”.

    • Brian Eagleson

      30 October 2016 • 16:43

      We all live on one single planet. It’s all we’ve got and we’re not looking after it very well.

      I would like to think that ultimately the human race has the potential to mature into some kind of genuine, coherent civilisation living in peaceful harmony instead of constantly waging war on itself, but I don’t hold out much hope.

      I look on this epoch as a transition phase. During the transition we’ll either unify and thrive or fragment and die, but if you want to unify you have to start somewhere. The EU was just that – a start. So was the UK. But maybe the experiment in unity is already over. It sure looks like it.

      Does “united we fall – divided we stand” make any sense? Of course not.

      If the human race just divides up into little tribes again then it’s going backwards – to the stone age.

    • Dimy Pozios

      30 October 2016 • 19:07

      UK government has lost all credibility in dealing with foreign trade for whole of UK. I agree it must now devolve it to its constituent countries by going the federal route

    • Neily McCormick

      30 October 2016 • 21:22

      Scotland isn’t a city, neither is it an English county.

    • Charlie Russell

      30 October 2016 • 23:06

      What a load of Absolute piffle. Scotland has no Army, R.A F. and NO NAVY. Smugglers would abound with aliens by the tens of thousands to get to the border with England, a massive Explosion of Non Scots in the border areas of Peebles,Selkirk, Dumfries, do U think for one Second that the people from the borders would put up with that, well my stupid friend the answer is no. As for myself I live in South Lanarkshire and I personally would say NO as well

    • Independent England

      30 October 2016 • 23:08

      Go for it, you’d lose miserably… And also, we English are sick of you, we’ve as sick of you independence squealing Toads as we are the WESTMINSTER Government who have MPs from all over these isles… A lot of good people here disillusioned by your traitorous attitudes after so many centuries together… And speaking of ‘Imperial’… What was a main reason scotland ASKED to join in union with england?! Because you got slaughtered the Spanish in now Mexico (I believe)… And your big brother had to come and sort them out!
      Absolute fools, do not put it past a civil war if you go… Many British nationalists in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland… We’d have a field day with you lot!

    • Cath

      31 October 2016 • 08:50

      It could work, but the English would also have to figure out what currency they were going to use as the UK has already made it perfectly clear no seceding region will be allowed to use our pound.

    • Malcolm

      31 October 2016 • 09:17

      Actually, “Britain” comes from the name of the Roman province of Britannia, which consisted of what’s now England and Wales. Strictly speaking, Scotland isn’t part of “Britain”, but Great Britain.

    • James

      31 October 2016 • 09:34

      I don’t think you get it. The UK certainly does have an army, a RAF and a navy. We are talking about England leaving the UK here. We could use our sudden over abundance of armed forces to protect our now much smaller borders.

    • Habib Steele

      31 October 2016 • 09:35

      The problem with a Federal system is that Scotland would still be stuck with Trident because Westminster will still claim Sovereignty. In a Confederacy each country would be sovereign. I Scotland, where the people are already sovereign, that sovereignty of the people would be realised. The Sovereignty of the Queen in Parliament is an English nation, and is not in accord with the Scottish Constitutional understanding of the Sovereignty of the people. The people of Scotland did not abdicate in 1707.

    • Dave Coull

      31 October 2016 • 10:28

      As a matter of fact, Malcolm, it was the Ancient Greeks, not the Romans, who first named these islands as Pretania. The Romans changed the Greek “P” to a “B”. but the term fell into disuse until another gang of conquerors came along – the Normans. They spoke French. They called the big island which included Scotland and Wales as well as England “Bretagne” (pronounced Brittania, more or less, but with a French accent). But there was a problem. The Province of Brittany on the French side of the Channel was (and still is) also Bretagne. So, in order to distinguish between the two, they called the bigger one Grande Bretagne – Big Britain. Centuries later, when the Norman ruling class of England got around to speaking English, they translated “Grande Bretagne” into English as “Great Britain”, just meaning “the bigger one”.

    • Dave Coull

      31 October 2016 • 12:44

      So the UK was Scotland England and Wales until 1801.

      The two kingdoms which signed the Treaty of Union were the Kingdom of Scotland and the Kingdom of England. Afdter the Treaty was signed, the Scottish Parliament passed the Union With England Act, and the English Parliament passed the Union With Scotland Act. These three documents, the Treaty of Union, the Union With England Act, and the Union With Scotland Act, are the three basic documents of the UK’s written Constitution. And Wales isn’t even mentioned in any of them. The 1801 Union With Great Britain Act passed by the (Anglican Church of Ireland, no Catholics or Presbyterians allowed) Irish Parliament, and the Union With Ireland Act passed by Westminster, on the other hand DO both specifically mention Scotland (they both have clauses which say “this bit doesn’t apply to Scotland”). However, these Acts will become redundant when the United Kingdom of Great Britain no longer exists.

    • Martyn Richard Jones

      31 October 2016 • 14:01

      Well stated!

    • Martyn Richard Jones

      31 October 2016 • 14:02

      ” We’d have a field day with you lot!”

      Bring it on.

    • Paul R

      31 October 2016 • 14:57

      The answer to this is fairly straightforward.

      England thinks it owns the UK. Asking England to leave to them will seem like the renter kicking out the landlord.

      This is what the Scots and Irish nationalists have been arguing about for decades – the unjust dictatorship by the English elite over the rest of the island. You can’t expect England to voluntarily give up its will to dominate.

      It would rather take Scotland and Ulster kicking and screaming than leave them to their own affairs.

    • Michael Chambers

      31 October 2016 • 15:15

      I propose a different semi-serious, semi-silly solution: people in NI, Wales and Scotland give the UK Govt an ultimatum. Unless the UK Govt starts treating the devolved administrations respectfully, England will be thrown out of the UK.

    • Chick

      31 October 2016 • 17:03

      Everyone who is running England down is okay. I am assuming at one time you all payed taxes in the UK and when you retire you’ll get a pension? Then with your attitudes I would say that all expats should loose there rights to get a pension> I voted to stay in the Union but Germany is the problem!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    • Mike in ESP

      31 October 2016 • 17:11

      Because Scotland is not the member of the EU, Nor is England the member of the EU, it is a part of the UK which is a member of the EU! Its not really as difficult to understand as some people make it out to be!

    • Maureen

      31 October 2016 • 17:35

      Please ladies and gentlemen, do not start your own civil war. It is clear to all that Teresa May and her government have a hard job to do with many complexities, but we have to give them a chance to get things straight, without just jumping in with both feet.
      But it has been very interesting to read how every one has a different answer to the problem without actually keeping to the real question.

    • Martin

      31 October 2016 • 18:02

      Hi Michael I’m guessing you are a jock or a taffy, we don’t mind either of you but resent funding the silly socialist agendas your local politicians seem to think is their right to squander english money, the scots bleat about their oil revenues but it’s been proven funding scotland versus tax oli returns will never be equal or fair to the english and as much as we love welsh singing and the rugby again wales is not and doesn’t look like it will be self financing anyday soon.

    • Robert Knight

      31 October 2016 • 18:08

      There never was a “United Kingdom of Great Britain”.

      There was a “united Kingdom of Great Britain”, or to put it another way, a unified Kingdom of Great Britain. The clue is in the name adopted by the unified parliaments of 1707 and 1801…

      The parliament which resulted from the Parliament of England joining with the Parliament of Scotland was the Parliament of Great Britain.

      In 1801, the Parliament of Ireland combined with the Parliament of Great Britain to create the Parliament of the United Kingdom.

      The 1706/7 Acts described a “united kingdom of Great Britain” and named it the “Kingdom of Great Britain”. Therefore in 1707 the word “united” was descriptive, it did not form part of the kingdom’s name until 1801.

    • Mike in ESP

      31 October 2016 • 18:08

      Very sensible words maureen but unfortunately many people posting here do not appear to have much common sense. This piece appears to have been posted by the author just to instigate discussion and argument, I see no other reason to have written such stupid hypothetical rubbish except to give some certain types of people reason to vent their silly opinions. Its when you read some of the comments made here it makes you wonder how such stupid politicians can get into power in the UK 🙂

    • Michael Chambers

      31 October 2016 • 21:15

      Theresa May does not deserve one scrap of a chance until she publishes an election manifesto in the usual way and calls a general election. She has absolutely no right to lead the country anywhere in the meantime. The 2015 election was fought by David Cameron with a manifesto that’s now dead in the water.

    • John

      31 October 2016 • 21:33

      That’s because England and Wales joined together in the act of union in 1543. That’s when the king was Welsh

    • Robyn Blanpied

      31 October 2016 • 21:46

      The Euro, of course. Duh.

    • Valerie

      31 October 2016 • 21:52

      Why, it effects us, we paid in all our working lives for our pension, as it is so low, it us cheaper living in another EU country. Why should we be used as pawns!

    • Caz

      31 October 2016 • 21:08

      yeah but we have trident… More powerful than any army. I used to live in the borders and I hope you can see the wood for the trees now. Scotland can run its own political affairs, may inherit the UKs EU membership which would be less of a headache due to Brexit. The forces, royal family etc probably would not change. That is most likely. I would love to be run by a government I vote on or the majority of Scots vote in. Not this Toey madness who tell us the country is skint but we can afford to spend trillions on a new runway…. Yeah right! We’re far from skint when it suits them! Please look into things more and let’s get our own parliament back and make a better job of it than Westminster!

    • Dave Coull

      31 October 2016 • 21:09

      Here’s what a senior EU lawyer says : “Folk who have no clue about how the EU works are trying to tell Scotland what will happen. Let me educate them. There’s no protocol for Scotland’s situation, but there’s a well defined process. Scotland’s position will be decided by judicial review in European Courts. There are 2 questions these European Judges need to rule on:

      (1) Can Scotland remove the rUK from our current contract, a legal procedure already possible under Ordinary Contract Law?

      (2) Probably more important, can the EU abandon 5 million people who are already EU citizens? Such a situation would go against fundamental EU principles and tear the very fabric of the EU.

      I find anything other than allowing Scotland to continue in the EU unlikely, but that decision will be made by judges in a court case, not by England, Spain or any other country in the EU.

      Anyone who offers up a different opinion is just trying to second guess the outcome of a court case; and anyone who says stuff like “Spain will block you” just doesn’t know what they’re talking about.

      I don’t myself know what the outcome of the court case will be, that’s for judges to decide, but they will have to answer these two questions, and I believe Scotland has a very strong case. How could the EU abandon 5 million people who are already EU citizens, and still hold to the EU’s fundamental principles? To do so would break the EU far more than brexit ever could.”

    • Brian Robinson

      31 October 2016 • 21:12

      The English haven’t ruled England, never mind any other country, since the Battle of Hastings, 950 years ago. When you say “the English wanted to absorb Scotland”, what you should say is “the non-English ruling classes squatting in England….”

    • Caz

      31 October 2016 • 21:28

      I partially see what you’re getting at #brian but we are all different and different we will remain. Some people are dangerous. Some people want all the power. People are divided and will remain as such. The days of a Perfect world where we all live in harmony, have no borders etc is probably never going to happen. Why? Money is one reason. Countries do not give up their wealth easily. Another reason – religion – been dividing us all for centuries. It’s a paradox how the religious person has a commandment to love thy neighbour and not kill but they do it any way in the name of their God…. I will never understand why! Final reason I will give here (although there are more) is sometimes going to war and taking out a dictator is necessary as was the case with Hitler. What we have to do it think about what is best for Scotland in this current climate. That for me is independence. Of course it would be better if England left but I doubt the English will be given a referendum to leave the UK. If they did maybe they would say yes to leaving the UK and let us get on with it!

    • Caz

      31 October 2016 • 21:43

      You need to step away from whatever has made you high and read some facts! We are all British nationals so not sure what the hell you’re on about. Civil war is not likely. ‘Traitorous independence squeaking toads’ I think you will find that the biggest losers to any split in the UK will be the English as also Brexit was a mistake. I wonder why you believe we are traitors when all we want is fair democratic powers? Look at how we have voted on several occasions but a Scottish majority vote means nothing. Perhaps 55% of us voted to remain in the UK a couple of years ago but I honestly believe it was swayed due to the potential loss of EU membership. You really have no clue so don’t be a troll for the sake of it.

    • Caz

      31 October 2016 • 21:47

      Spot on! Guy doesn’t have a clue and should read a book once in a while…

    • Martyn Richard Jones

      31 October 2016 • 23:32

      [quote]Everyone who is running England down is okay. I am assuming at one time you all payed taxes in the UK and when you retire you’ll get a pension? Then with your attitudes I would say that all expats should loose there rights to get a pension> I voted to stay in the Union but Germany is the problem!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![/quote]

      Have you thought this through?

    • Michael Chambers

      01 November 2016 • 08:52

      I’m English. I think for a start you should do your homework on funding across the UK rather than parrot the tabloid spin that England subsidises Scotland.Then perhaps you could ask Scots and Welsh if they like it when people call them Jocks and Taffies in political debates.

    • Mike Scott

      01 November 2016 • 09:46

      International treaties are not contracts, and contract law does not apply to Scotland’s membership of the EU.

    • Dave Coull

      01 November 2016 • 10:28

      [quote]International treaties are not contracts, and contract law does not apply to Scotland’s membership of the EU.[/quote]

      So, Mike, the Treaty of Union isn’t a contract?

    • Mike Scott

      01 November 2016 • 11:10

      That’s correct, it’s a treaty not a contract.

    • Martyn Richard Jones

      01 November 2016 • 11:38

      Exactly right.

    • TangerinePanda

      01 November 2016 • 15:11

      Interesting idea except that most major employers in Scotland and Northern Ireland have operations in those countries because it provides low cost support to their main English businesses. If England were to leave the UK, those businesses would have no alternative but to pull back into England. That would create serious employment problems for Scotland and Northern Ireland. Since neither has economies capable of generating sufficient wealth to support themselves, both would require substantial EU funding/support. Given the EU will lose c15% of it’s annual Budget when “England” leaves, whatever the European Courts might think, the EU simply could not afford to fund such a solution.

    • Brian Eagleson

      01 November 2016 • 15:17

      I wanted Scottish Independence Caz. Loved “Outlander”, about Jacobite Scotland and an English woman’s adventures there. I highly recommend the box set of both tv series, but many non-Scots will need subtitles to understand the language! (grin.)

      A little bit of me still wants Scottish Independence, but something happened recently that made the rest of me change – Brexit.

      What if Brexit goes ahead in its present form led by the Westminster government and Scotland DOES vote to separate from England? What would happen to the living standards of the people in both countries?

      We’ve already seen the Pound plummet by 25% of its value against the Euro since last year’s high. Come Brexit-Day it will fall further due to the impact of new trade, customs and banking tariffs on an already shaky service economy. Imagine how much further it will fall if Britain breaks in two at the same time. We would all be much poorer. We Scots might be better off than the English of course if we adopted the Euro before the Pound falls any further, but not much.

      Nowadays, I genuinely believe “unity is strength”. I voted against Brexit, as did the majority of Scots. However the more shameful comments from some English people in this thread are shaking my belief that any kind of unity with England is possible any longer. I would say to such people, be careful what you wish for!

    • Ian

      01 November 2016 • 16:49

      Well, the heat has dissipated on this subject – all has gone quiet from the many contributors -. I remember another significant political event in 1999, – I leave you readers to think about what it was and where. It did prompt a critique of a book with a fictionalised but believable and probably accurate behind the scenes account of the actual events, summed up by one of the newspapers at the time – & I wonder if it fits this increasingly crazy EU/ UK situation – ‘An excoriating denunciation of hypocritical diplomacy, high politics and exploitative journalism which explodes in an apocalyptic climax.’

    • Dave Coull

      01 November 2016 • 17:21

      “neither has economies capable of generating sufficient wealth to support themselves” says Tangerine Panda

      By far the biggest single export the UK has is whisky.

      SCOTCH whisky.

    • Mike in ESP

      01 November 2016 • 21:17

      As much as there being truth in what you say I have just added some interesting data:

      BTW, it is the government that actually employs a huge number of people in N.I. in the civil service! Those people could not survive if those jobs where lost as they would be when the government offices are moved to the mainland UK, there would be nothing to replace those jobs… so N.I. won’t be leaving the UK! 🙂

    • Robin Barclay

      02 November 2016 • 06:55

      To whomever it was that suggested ‘a number of businesses will pull their premises from Scotland in the event of independence threatening mass unemployment’, I’m sorry but I believe that you are way off the mark with that little doozy.
      I would say that it is far more likely that businesses will move into Scotland in order to maintain their EU status. My Question to you is why would a business want to have several years of uncertainty about trade deals and tariffs whilst Mayhem and Co thrash out details (which they can only do after they have negotiated with Brussels) when they could retain their EU Credentials by moving 500miles up the road from London to Edinburgh/Glasgow?

    • Mike in ESP

      02 November 2016 • 09:13

      Brian, people being simple or not has nothing to do with what I said!

      Your second hasn’t really either… the UK being a member of the EU has nothing to do with what you rant on about… you and others can make it appear as complicated as you want but it is… the UK that is the member state of the EU, not Scotland, N.I., Wales or England… end of story!

      There is no true democracy of course, Switzerland I believe is one of the few countries that comes anywhere near to being a true democracy, although it isn’t either… just as a matter of interest. 🙂

    • Mike in ESP

      02 November 2016 • 09:39

      Caz, If should look at what goes on in the Scotish parliament, you might understand that the little mad woman doesn’t want trident… so you might not have it if she got her way! Even if Westminster have approved it.
      What would the Scotish parliament make a better job of? Sturgeon already has shown she hasn’t a clue on running Scotland as any of the SNP haven’t, you really need to watch what goes on there and see all the issues under the SNP, their prime interest is to leave the UK… that is where most of Scotland’s problems are! It also appears that many of her Scottish supporters are now catching on her and her interests… or lack of them depending on how you look at it!

    • Brian Eagleson

      02 November 2016 • 12:56

      Oh Mike, please do not continue to deceive yourself that such a fiendishly complicated situation is simple when it patently is not.

      You say it is “the UK that is the member state of the EU, not Scotland, N.I., Wales or England… end of story! ” Yes you are perfectly correct up to a point. That is the present situation. Indeed it is, but the very outcome of the Brexit vote itself is changing all that. It doesn’t necessarily follow that the relationship between these countries will inevitably stay the same AFTER the Brexit. Different countries have different agendas. Things change. In fact everything changes over time. Nothing lasts forever. Empires rise and fall. The Republic of Ireland has left Britain already. A precedent has been set.

      The English exit from the EU is seemingly inevitable, but do not assume English arrogance will make Scotland meekly tag along with you. Be prepared for the gathering storm and the ultimate devastation it may bring – to everyone caught up in it.

      Some of the more extreme English contributors here even think England is actually better off alone! Their misplaced English pride blinds them to the reality of England’s continuing dependence on outside influences. In this deeply interconnected world, no man is an island – even if he’s English.

      Don’t expect any further replies from me by the way. This one should suffice. It’s self-evident.

    • Dave Coull

      02 November 2016 • 16:12

      No man is an island,
      Entire of itself,
      Every man is a piece of the continent,
      A part of the main.
      If a clod be washed away by the sea,
      Europe is the less.
      As well as if a promontory were.
      As well as if a manor of thy friend’s
      Or of thine own were:
      Any man’s death diminishes me,
      Because I am involved in mankind,
      And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls;
      It tolls for thee.

    • Mike in ESP

      02 November 2016 • 16:44

      You look at it as you want Brian, but as I have said, it is the UK that is the member state of the EU, not singular UK countries. If you want Scotland to be a member of the EU then UK has to leave first then Scotland can apply to join, you make it as complicated as you want to see it 🙂

      One other thing, you as other keep spurting out nationalism and such things as “Some of the more extreme English contributors here even think England is actually better off alone” well some of the Scots here “including you” actually think Some of the more extreme Scottish contributors here even think Scotland is actually better off alone!

      For crying out loud Brian, listen to yourself 🙂

    • Mike in ESP

      02 November 2016 • 16:49

      And I guess indyref3 after that… ya know you gotta have the best of three no! 🙂 Come to think of it maybe this is something we could do with elections while we are at it, might make it a bit more interesting to give the losers a couple of chances 🙂

      Obviously a lot of people have nothing constructive to do with their time now, that’s what we get for having social media and the internet eh 🙂

    • Chick

      02 November 2016 • 22:36

      Why are you all bleating these countries Scotland,Wales and Northern Ireland. I would imagine that everyone’s reply I have been reading are English eand have left the UK and now living in another country. So why go on about it just stay were you are and don’t bother coming back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    • Dave Coull

      03 November 2016 • 14:00

      “maybe this is something we could do with elections”

      the maximum time between elections is five years, Mike.
      Unless the Government loses its majority through by-elections, or loses a vote of confidence, in which case it can be anytime.

      Having a new referendum on independence for Scotland when it’s quite clear the 2014 message “You’ll be out of the EU if you vote Yes” is now completely out of date makes perfect sense.

    • Chick

      03 November 2016 • 16:59

      Why don’t we all get on with life and forget all this arguing, Scotland has no oil as such. So how will they manage on there own??

    • Mike in ESP

      03 November 2016 • 17:45

      Yep, why not, then the general public could screw the UK economy up for good wouldn’t it, just like moaning remainers including some MP’s are doing now by creating more economic instability for an unstable economy, your suggestion will drag UK into an even more unstable economy… clever thinking batman!

      Funny isn’t it how many complain about the economic instability Brexit has created… yet go out and create even more instability by moaning and demanding another indy vote! Another referendum! Continue in the single market! Just let the government get on with it and all these complaints people have about the falling pound and economic stability will be better…. just takes people to stop moaning! 🙂

    • Clive Walley

      04 November 2016 • 16:29

      Chick – how little you know of the world I am sorry to say. Wales actually is sitting on the fence and not bleating.
      Perhaps you live nearby and can hear the sheep bleating bleary-eyed after a busy days
      chomping grass in water-laid fields.

      I’m a time-served English taxpayer who for 44 years paid my dues unfailingly and along the way managed
      to create 1500 man-years of work in Leicestershire. This afforded HM Treasury countless millions in taxes
      and N.I. contributions to say nothing
      of the VAT collected over a number of years. So I have a right to belly-ache about what is going on in England
      and the UK and resent the usual brexit assumption that you are empowered to tell everybody who disagrees with
      brexit and who is concerned for their country to “shut up·”.
      How dare you and the likes assume this power you have not been granted?

    • Clive Walley

      04 November 2016 • 16:30

      It is bad enough that we have a dictatorship in Downing street run by the Four Brexiteers
      and who have decided to hi-jack UK citizens living in the EU and EU and are holding them and their families as
      hostages to be bartered for favorable trade deals like they are lots to be cast. The powers you lot have been
      encouraged to believe are not for you or the public at large but for May and co who will use them to turn citizens
      into surfs and themselves into Barons. These people are the new elite who along with the right wing press owners
      who are already part of the elite will make your future lives hell. I have voted Conservative over the last 56 years
      but the party I once trusted is now moving towards Nazism and do not want your rights to be protected by the
      Human Rights Act. Be Warned!!!!!

    • Mary

      04 November 2016 • 19:23

      The English don’t have a government, certainly not Westminster. Scotland has a government, and Wales. Northern Island has an assembly.

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